How Long Can A Canadian Snowbird Stay Out of the Country?
8/30/10 • By Milan Korcok, Editor
That is the most frequent question I hear from Canada’s snowbirds, who will be making close to one million out-of-country trips this coming season. The rules are not the same for all provinces. Read on to find out more.
How long you can stay out of the country depends on two things: your own provincial rules on medicare eligibility, and how long your host country (for most snowbirds that’s the United States) allows you to stay as a visitor. These are two separate sets or rules, and they don’t necessarily coincide.
Let’s deal with the provincial rules first. All provinces, except Ontario and Newfoundland, require you to actually live in your home province for at least six months plus a day (183 days in most years) in order to be considered a permanent resident of that province, and therefore qualified for provincial health insurance (medicare) benefits. That means actually residing in your home province and being able to prove it, if necessary, not simply owning a residence there and living in Portugal, Mexico or California for eight or nine months. That means you are allowed to be out-of-the province for half a year less a day—182 days. (Caution: once you are out of your province, that 183-day clock starts ticking. So if you ordinarily live in Manitoba and want to stay with family in Ontario for a month before leaving for Florida,
you will only have five months left to spend in the Sunshine State.)
Ontario allows you to be out of the country for 212 days (seven months) and Newfoundland for eight months without risking loss of your medicare benefits.
If you stay out of your province longer than that, you risk losing your “residency” and with it your medicare benefits, and you will then have to re-instate your eligibility by living in your province for three straight months (without leaving) before you get those benefits back. And you will have to be able to prove that you have complied.
Since there are no provincial border police, you can expect a certain flexibility in how these rules are applied and I know of quite a few people who bend the rules to get a few extra days here or there. If it becomes an issue with your provincial authorities (that is, if your neighbor snitches on you and you are caught) the provincial authorities might well average out your out-of-province stays for the past two or three years to see how you measure up against that six-month threshold. They will not likely prosecute you if you are over by a few of days in one year. But as a general rule, it’s best to simply add up how many days you have been out of the country in a given year in total, and stay within the limits.
The other set of rules are set by your host country and have nothing to do with the medicare eligibility rules in your home province. The U.S. rules are also somewhat flexible, but you best understand them. Generally, you are allowed to stay in the U.S. for up to six months without a visa (more about this later) so long as the border agent allowing you in feels you have the wherewithal to support yourself, that you intend to return to Canada within that six month limitation, that you do not intend to stay in the U.S. permanently (illegally), and that you have a “greater connection” to Canada than to the U.S. If he feels you are manipulating the rules and actually living more in the U.S. than in Canada he can deny you entry and there’s not much you can do about it.
If you overstay that six-month allowance and are seen to be doing so by border agents you will likely be put on a restricted list and denied entry to the U.S. for a number of years. It’s too complicated to list the restrictions and penalties here—just, don’t do it.
If you do overstay and you are seen to be more of a U.S. resident than a Canadian one, you may well be required to pay taxes in the U.S. as well as in Canada and you don’t want that.
Travelling back and forth across the border has become a little more complicated over the past few years, but it is still relatively easy for Canadians due to certain dispensations the U.S. offers its northern neighbor. In effect visitors from Canada are “deemed” to be travelling into the U.S. on a visitor’s visa even if you don’t have the paperwork to prove it. But if you want to stay longer than six months, you will have to apply for the real thing and that is a more complicated process—not for discussion here.
How do you prove your legitimacy and your domicile and your residency to a curious border agent?
Get a passport. And if you don’t already have one, shame on you. This is the 21st century and if you want the privilege of being able to travel to foreign countries (and remember, it is a privilege and not a right) then accept the obligation of being able to prove who you are.
And remember most of all, that once you leave your province and enter another country, your medicare benefits stay behind and you become responsible for paying for your own medical costs. You will be lucky if your provincial medicare pays 10 cents on the dollar of any foreign hospital bills you generate.
That’s what out-of-country travel health insurance is for.
Hi Milan
Just got some information that as of Jan 1,2013 Canadians driving in Florida require International Drivers Licences. Our CAA offices apparently supply them and the picture for the Licence at a cost of $ 35.00 and are valid for one year.
I hope the Florida Legislature reconsiders this requirement of Canadians in Florida.
Bob:
There is a new law that “requires” all foreigners, including Canadians, to get an international drivers license in addition to their own but don’t get too worried. It really was a screw up that legislators often promulgate when they don’t think too much, which is often. It was intended to cover non-English language licenses which are hard for most troopers to read. Even the tourism people didn’t see this one coming so they didn’t fight it. The law will be changed as soon as the legislature returns for its summer session and until then, most troopers and police officers have been told not to enforce the law for Canadians and others with legible English language licences. The CAA in Canada is consequently offering international licences for $25 and it’s up to you if believe its better to be safe than sorry. Frankly, if stopped, I would just plead ignorance.
They won’t execute you.
Milan
Hi Milan.
Great site.
Have you heard anything about BC extending the time that people that live in BC can stay out of BC without loosing there medical coverage. We have heard rumors (from a few people) that they are going to extend it from 183 days to 190 days. We heard they were going to make an announcement this February sometime. Thought of you immediately I heard this, as I new if anyone would know it would be you.
We are snowbirds and are going to Europe as well this Year (2013), so a few days will make a difference to us.
Thank you in advance.
Jan
Jan:
By now, or very soon today, you will see the full story on this up on the website. BC has pending legislation which is expected to pass very soon to allow BC’ers an additional 30 days out of the country. This will be especially beneficial to people who want to spend six months in the U.S. (that is not changing) but want to travel our of the province or to another country for up to a month more.
Milan
Hi Milan
I am a little confused about the US visitor visa.
Can you come back and forth or the total per year is it 6 months.
With my health insuranve all I have to do is come back over night??
Garry:
The total per year is six months–in one long stretch or a bunch or shorter trips. As for your health care, that is a provincial situation that has nothing to do with U.S. law, and depending in which province you live, you must be there physically for a given number of months. Since I don’t know in which proivince you live, I can’t be more specific. It’s not just a matter of crossing the border for a day. These are rwo separate sets of laws.
Milan
I am working in US with TN visa. My mom is 77 years old. She is a canadian citizen. She wants to stay with me in the US. Is there a visa that I can apply for her?
Thank you
Louis:
There is a family preference visa, but like everything else, it takes a long time. But try to make your case through your local consulate.
Milan
OK , my Fiance visited in the US for 4months in 2012 and two months in 2013 consecutivly for 183 days.
She has returned to Toronto, CA.
Question; How long will she be rquired to live in CA before returning to the US ?
Thank you all……………
Steve:
Some border agents count the 183 days strictly in a calendar year, others on a past 12 months basis. If she goes back too soon, especially to see a boyfriend the border agent may suspect that she intends to stay and get married, or live-in or whatever and that they frown on without proper authorization. I would suggest she wait at least till early summer and then have plenty of documentation that she has a home in Canada, has roots there, is intending to go back. It makes for a cumbersome boyfriend-girlfriend relationship but so much depends on what the border agent perceives as her intentions. One side question: does she have a job in Canada to which she must return? If not, that will raise a warning signal.
Milan
Milan,
Would you explain which border agents in the reply (US or CA).
I have also petitioned for a K1 Visa and still waiting for the Fiance interview.
We thought it would all be settled by now but not so.
She left her job in CA last Sept but now will stay at her parents in Toronto until further notice.
Thank you……..
Steve:
I was referrring to U.S. border agents. K1 or non-imigrant visas for a fiance averge about eight months, but dealing with the U.S. bureaucracy these days makes it a toss up. Who knows? But the fact you have filed indicates that your fiance does have ultimate plans to move to the U.S. and a U.S. border agent might consider a visit now, a premature move. He might think you are trying to short circuit the system and that could be fatal. Also, you are aware that once she arrives in the U.S. with K1 visa in hand you have 90 days to get married. I don’t know when you filed your application so I don’t know if this case is unusually long or not, but once she goes for her medical and interview she could get permission right away.
I would suggest an impromptu visit by her to you before you get the visa a risky thing to try as it may jeopardize the whole process. When dealing with the U.S. government, patience is not only a virtue, it is a necessity. You can still visit Canada though, with no restrictions.
Milan
Hi Milan.
Thanks for all the info on your site about BC extending the amount of time (by 30 days) out of the country/province.
Do you now when this will get passed? and also will it come in effect for this year(2013) or will it start for next year?
Thanks in advance.
Jan
Jan.
No, I don’t know when this will get passed but I suspect it will be soon considering the government has already put out a press release on it.. In the meantime., I don’t imagine the bureaucrats will have put a very high priority on invesigating those who overstay, knowing the law is going to be changed. But just be careful, this does not mean you have more time to spend in the U.S. than six months. That is a U.S. law and that has not changed. Don’t confuse the two.
Milan
Thanks Milan.
We are snowbirds and do go down south.. This year 2013 (from Jan. to Dec)our total stay in the US will be 165 days. We were planning on going to Europe as well this year for 35 days, but we would have been over our 183 days.But now it sounds like we can go ahead and book our trip to Europe. Our total time out of BC will be 200 days for 2013. Am I figuring this all out correct?
Thanks again.
Jan
Hi Milan
Information please. I am Canadian wanting to take a cruise out of the USA and returning to Canada. Do those days on the cruise ship count as days in the USA? Notwithstanding, If the cruise ship was embarking from a US Port and returning to a US Port, do those days on the cruise ship count towards the number of days you are allowed to stay in the US?
Thank You!!
Mike
Mike:
Short answer: Yes. U.S. ship sailing out of a U.S. port means days in the U.S.
Milan
Wants to know how long ca a canadian retiree stay max in the philippines w/o jeopardizing his medical and pension benefits
Lita:
His pension benefits follow him wherevcer he goes. No limit. His provincial health care depends on which province he resides in. They have different rules.
Milan
Hi Milan,
We live in BC eight miles from the US border and often go into the Sates for gas and visiting family in Seattle. What constitutes a “day” out of the country? Does every entry into the US (even if the stay is 30 minutes) count as a “day” of your 183 allowable days? Thanks for helping out.
Mike
Mke:
Any entry into the U.S.A. counts as a day.
Milan
Hi Milan,
I am an Alberta Canadian, and I have been in the states for a part of 2012 and 2013…. Does that whole calendar year thing apply….meaning…my time in 2012 is not applicable to my time spent in the US in 2013 ..it cancels it out?
Shanon:
It is applicable. If you have been in the U.S. more than 182 days in the past calendar year or the past 12 months you are at risk. An agent can look at your past 12 months and if you have not been in Alberta for more than a few days can assume you do not have a closer connection to Canada, a job, a residence, etc ad bar you from another entry for several years. The 182 days is a generous rule. Most other countries are only alllowed 90.
Milan
Hi Milan
I am from Alberta
I came down to California on November 5th 2012 planning to stay til April 2013.
I returned to Canada in February for 25 days for family emergency.
Am I able to stay longer now.
Tks
Laine
Laine
Before you try, what explanation would you have for staying so long and then returning? You have already used up your six months in the past year. How can you claim that you spend more time in Canada than the the U.S.? Do you have a closer connection to Canada and can you prove it? This is not just a matter of days–it’s a matter of your intentions. The border agent must be convinced you intend to return to Canada and you have a permenent home there. That’s what you need to keep in mind.
Milan
Hi there
How does a province know how long you have been out of the country when it comes to health care.
When you leave Canada you pass through US customs. When you enter Canada you pass through Canadian customs. Do they share information?
Michael:
The truth is they often don’t. They are sometimes tipped off by neighbours or “friends.” Or if they have a medical claim, the provincial agency has proof you were out. Then if they operate on a tip, they can usually pin you down if they want to investigate you. That part is not hard. Everybody leaves a big paper trail behind them–credit cards, hotel bills, post office reroutes, etc. As for these agencies sharing information: yes they do. Computers make that so easy.
Milan
Thanks Milan…..So in other words if the Canadian and US agencies don’t investigate me…..the US agency has no idea when I returned to Canada and the Canadian has no idea when I left. Swiping my Passport at either side doesn’t instantly let the other know when I left.
Don’t confuse the healthcare ministries with the border agencies. The border people do often share information. Just because the healthcare ministry does not investigate you–which it might if it gets a tip–the folks at the border are quite different and they have many ways to keep track of how many days you have spent in the U.S. Do they share information? They sure do.
Milan
Ok Milan…..You have answered my question/s
Many thanks
I understand about the 183 days, can that be split into two segments.
Is there a minimum time one must be in Canada, ie over 31 days before one could return to the US for a second trip.?
Don:
You can split up the 182 (note–not 183) days any way you like. There is no limit on how long you must stay in Canada between visits.
Milan
hi…i was wondering what happens if i go to europe or brazil australia etc for 1 yr..i live in ontario..im planning on retiring this dec…when i come back do i have to wait 3 months for me to get the health care back..right?……what if i leave june to dec 2014 …then leave again jan.2015 ..for 4 months is it per calendar year..or say june to june…thxs
Nellie:
You can apply once every five years to stay out up to a year. But you have to apply. If you don’t apply for a special dispensation, you are allowed to stay out of Ontario for up to seven months in the last 12 months (not a calendar year).
Milan
Does Business count towards your 6 months/year.
i was told that if you go to the us for business meeting, they do not count as pleasure days,it is only pleasure days that are counted. can you shed some light on this issue.
Thank you.
Malik:
That’s a grey area because many people go out on business meetings of three or four days and they are not designated as such. If you are travelling on a business or NAFTA visa you are allowed much more. Also, if you go on business you will need a special visa. Usually people don’t designate a short two or three day seminar in which case it will count as part of the 182 days.
Milan
Hi,
I receive CPP, OAS and Alberta Health Care. I will soon be 70 years old. I am a resident of Alberta. I work part time in Canada and in Cuba three or four times a year on a Cuban work visa for a week or two at a time. I also travel to the Carribean as often as I can (Arthritis).
My questions are:
1.- Do these “work” trips to Cuba count for the six month rule? (Flights are direct to Cuba; no USA stops)
2.- I’m confused about the six month rule; is it an absence from Alberta of no more than 182 days in a calendar year?, Is it an absence of not more than 182 days at a time (can leave Canada again in a couple of weeks for another 182 days)?
3.- Could I, for instance, leave Canada on October 1, 2013 and be back before April 1, 2014 and I would have only used half my absence time for each year.
4.- What effect would my overextending these stays (through no fault of my own) on my CPP and OAS?
These rules are all pretty confusing. Is there any leterature from Services Canada which “CLEARLY” sets this out?
Thanks very much.
Terry:
A work visa and a tourism visa are not the same thing, neither are the rules. But it seems nobody has caught on. It seems you are not telling the customs agents on your return that you have been working in Cuba, which could be problematic if they catch on.
About the six month out-of-province rule I don’t know why you should be confused, we write about it often enough. Here it is: you are allowed to be out of Alberta for up to 182 days in a calendar year–that is from January 1 to December 31, and that can be in one stretch or several shorter trips. These absences also have no effect on your OAS or CPP, to which you are entitled no matter where you are or how long you have been out of the country–so long as you qualified in the first place.
Milan
Thanks Milan. I don’t know if I’m hard headed or just don’t speak legaleze. After all, I am an engineer and used to “CLARITY”. Thanks again. Are you sure that absences of more than six months have no effect on CPP or OAS?
Terry
Terry.
Yes. No matter where you go or for how long, so long as you qualify in the first place, you get your CPP and your OAS. Clear enough?
Milan
After reading all this, I’m beginning to feel a little dense! Please clarify:
The 182 (not 183!) days allowed out of the province (in my case, BC) is NOT per calendar year? For example, THIS year (2013), we left home Jan. 10th, returning on March 25th. NEXT year, our plan is to leave Dec. 1st, and return approximately the same date. Does our 182 days begin counting Dec. 1st & continue right to March, or does the clock stop ticking Dec. 31, and resume Jan. 1st for the next calendar year?
I also gather BC is extending our away time by 30 additional days. Do you know when that will take effect?
And my final question: BC’ers who travel out-of-province for 182 + days may have their homeowners’ grants affected, or so the rumour goes. I am aware my medical may be compromised by travel longer than 6 months, but my grant also? Do you know anything about that?
I appreciate your help, and apologize for putting you in a position of having to repeat yourself (again & again!).
Kelly:
It’s not difficult. Each province has its own rules. In B.C., the provincial health plan requires you to be physically present in the province for 182 days in a calendar year-that is between January 1 and December 31. And Yes, your legislature will soon change the rules to allow you to stay out of the for seven instead of six months. Since there is little opposition to that rule change it will likely happen quite soon, but I can’t tell you when. Stay glued to your TV or newspaper. And as soon as we get the news we will pass it on. However, unless some thinking has changed it is still likely to be per calendar year. In Ontario, for example, the out of country allowance is already 7 months, but that is per the previous 12 months, and not per calendar year.
That’s what makes it so confusing.
Milan
Thank you very much, Milan. I also clarified my homeowners’ grant information thru the BC H.O.G. website. So we are good to go!
I was wondering how many days you are allowed in the USA. I live in Ontario and make frequent daily trips to the USA for 2-3 Hrs and back home. Are these included in the 182 day yearly total.
Thanks
Dan:
Yes: any part of a day in the U.S. is counted as a day and you have a total of 182 days. .
Milan
thanks
My son works/lives in the US. He files income taxes in Canada as well as the US and has been deemed a resident of Ontario by CRA. He pays to CRA an amount of $300 for OHIP when he files his Canadian Income Tax. question is when he returns to Canada on a visit can he still visit his doctor or is there a waiting period? does he have the same coverage as he had when he lived/worked in Canada?
Janet:
If your son lives in the U.S. he is not eligible for provincial health care. It’s not a matter of where he pays his taxes but where he lives.
Milan
Thanks for your reply. if that is the case, I’m curious as to why he has to pay OHIP when he files his taxes.
Janet:
That’s a question all Canadian snowbirds should be asking their government.
Milan
hi , I live in BC. If your re out of canada for more 6 months, what is the process to get your bc medical back?
thanks Dan
Dan:
You notify the MSP that you are back. You will wait three months (during which you should get interim private health coverage–our advertisers can provide) and you should be back on the rolls at that time. But you must stay in the province consistently during that time and have proof that you have stayed. You can’t just “check in” and go off travelling again. They want your feet on B.C. soil.
Milan
My 86-years old ailing sister makes me consider that I have to go back to see her again. I’m in my 70s. Last time I had to visit her, I left in the middle of Sept and came back to Canada on late January/13: total time away: four and half months.. In the ( unfortunate) case that sister is going to be in the last breath of her life, if I need ( hopefully not…) to leave again soon, it means that I might be leaving before having stayed here ( BC) for six months straight. I’m kind of confused about it all….Would you explain please?
Manuel:
You’re fine. You are allowed six months out of B.C. each year (soon it will be 7) and there is no requirement that you must be back at home for six months straight before you visit the U.S. again–so long as you don’t exceed the yearly limit
Milan
My sister lives in Spain not in the Startes but, according to your so kind ( and prompt) reply to my inquiry; it is understandable that the rules are the same, either if one goes to the United States , or Spain. Much thanks for your kind help, Milan.
Manuel:
The rules are not the same. Unless she has a visa, she is allowed only 90 days in Spain. It is only the U.S. that allows Canadians (and only Canadians) 182 days. The rules for out of country allowance for provincial health care are the same. I don’t know which province your sister normally resides in, but she is still required to be physically present in her home province for the given number of days in order to be eligible for medicare. Tell me what province, and I’ll tell you the number of days.
Milan
I came back to your informative website, Milan, to let you know that my sister is a Spanish citizen who never ever left Spain. I’m the one visiting her every year. Just to clarify that, and to give you thanks for your hearty-practical guidance through the bureaucratic maze…
Manuel:
If I had a sister in Spain I would visit her each year too, but for no longer than 90 days at time
Milan
Hola Milan
I’m reading in the news that in a few months a bill is going to be passed allowing “snowbirds” to be away from Canada up to seven or eight months.
I’m a senior but not a “snowbird” in the sense that I don’t go to Florida I go away, yes – to Spain, , to visit my dear elderly sister. If that bill is passed may I stay seven or eight months away? Or is only valid for those who go to the United States? Much thanks for your reply, Milan..
Manuel:
B.C. will soon pass a bill to allow you to be out of the province for up to seven months–no matter where you go.
In Ontario you can already go for seven months.
Milan
Hello Milan, Hopefully you can help me out. If time of 3 separate trips to the us from Canada started in Nov 6 2011 3 days July-Oct1-.2012(3mths) nov 6 /2012 6 days. Jan 3- Feb 15/2013 1 !/2 mths-Feb 20- return. How much time would be left? Would the time start from Nov 6 2011 and go to calenderer year of Nov 12 and the calendar year start again Nov 12/2012 to Nov 12.2013? Thank you so much.
Joanne:
First of all, I do not like doing math, so do your own counting. But here is the rule: you can spend 182 days in the calendar year or in the past 12 months and you can do it in a total of little pieces or one long stretch. The key is that the U.S. border agent must be convinced you are spending more time in Canada than in the U.S. and that you have a closer connection to Canada than the U.S. So if you go to the U.S. for the last six months of 2013, go back home to Canada for six days and plan on returning to the U.S. for another six months he will likely deduce that you don’t really live in Canada full time and are trying to live in the U.S. full time and that is when you get into a heap of trouble.
Milan
Thank-you Milan,
Sorry about the math part. It was not my intention for you to count the days up. I was trying to show that starting Nov 2011/ Nov 2012 and Nov 2012/ 2013 are the dates my friend took as a calender year. She had no intention to live in the United States and the ties to Canada have been strong with her keeping her residence.in Canada. and certainly thinking she is was within her rightful stay. As of recent, (2013) she took the University tour and spoke with the International Student Office. She is in the midst of the paperwork including the I-20 application. I was looking for student medical insurance for University students(a mandatory requirement) and came upon your website,. I was very surprised to hear your answer!
.Yesterday she called the University and they said they do not handle the area of time spent in the United States. She called the border and they said it depended on the border guard and he said it could go either way. Like I said I stumbled upon your website looking for medical insurance for her but now she is in a real tizzy. She has had no problem whatsoever going across the border in the past and has never stayed any longer then 3 months at a time. Could you suggest whom would be the best government agency to call? Thank-you so much for your time and again sorry for all that math.
Joanne:
Calendar year means January 1 to Dec. 31. Is your friend thinking of going to university in the U.S? If so I can recommend some student programs in Canada that would cover her.
Milan
Dear Milan,
Thank-you for the information. This certificate course is not available in Canada. It is an extended program offered to International Students and offers an internship. She was told that she needed student medical insurance.
Hello:
From Ontario, We are travelling to Florida. The 182-183 days we are allowed to stay in United States. If we leave Nov 15/13 come home for 10 days in December 2013 and then go back till May 15/2014 would those 10 days be taken off of our 182 days?
Also would we be able to take any day trips over to the states?
When do the days start being counted Jan to Dec??
Thanks looking forward to an answer.
Jane
Jane:
The 10 days back in Canada would count as part of your 182 days. But if you stayed in Canada 30 days or longer, they would not. And if you stayed up to or longer than 182 days from November to May you would not be able to take more day trips into the U.S.–not legally, anyway. Of course you might also bump into a nice border agent show wouldn’t make an issue of it and let you go, but that’s taking some risk.
Milan
I apologize for not had been more explicit in my last entry, Milan. My sister is a Spanish citizen who lives in Spain. I’m the one visiting her. What I meant in my last question to you, Milan, is that assume that the rules which need to be obeyed when one is out the country ( I live in BC) are the same, regardless if I go to Spain, or the United States. Right? Thanks again for you kind help.
Manuel:
If you are referring to provincial health benefits, the rules are the same. Six months out of the province (the legislature in B.C. will soon make it seven.) If you are looking at how long you can stay in Spain–it is only 90 days without a visa. In the US it is 182 days.
Milan
Hola Milan
I do have dual citizenship. So I don’t need to think about that “three months stay…” Thanks anyway. My concern is to clarify the questions that I have written earlier on, today:
There is an upcoming bill that will allow snowbirds to stay away seven or eight months, Milan. I’m not going to Florida. To Spain, yes. If that bill is passed it is valid for all the destinations, or only for the United States’ bound snowbirds?
Hi Milan,
According to what I read if you stay in US for more than about 122 days per year for more than 3 years you would fail the Substantial-Presence Test, and could have to pay US taxes. Is this something that is enforced and worth worrying about? How hard is it to get exempt from this? See link below.
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Substantial-Presence-Test
Dave:
the 122 days is an oversimplification but if I try to simply it more I will only confused you more. The way to get around it is easy: File an 8840 form from the IRS. It has the formula for how long you can stay in order to be considered taxable, but it also allows you to prove you have a closer connection to Canada and therefore can file in Canada and not the U.S. So long as you do not earn money in the U.S. or work in the U.S. the 8840 will cover you. It’s the easiest way and it’s legal. In fact I recommend all snowbirds file one each year.
Milan
Regarding the “Substantial Presence Test”. It states, “You are considered a U.S. resident if you meet the substantial presence test for 2012. You meet this test if you were physically present in the United States for at least …” Then it talks about the formula of counting full days for current year, 1/3 of the days for the previous year and 1/6 the number of days for the year prior to that.
If we are wintering in the U.S. but in the middle of our vacation we fly home for two weeks at Christmas, I understand that the two weeks in Canada is still included in our 182 days. But we are not “physically” present in the United States for those two weeks. Do you know where I can find information about having to be out of the U.S. for a minimum of 30 days so none of it is included in the 182 days?
Patches:
That’s a very good question. But don’t lose sleep over it. The substantial presence test determines if you have been in the U.S. long enough over the previous three years to be taxable to the IRS. It sounds as if you have been, but that is not terminal. You complete and file an 8840 IRS form and you will be free to pay your taxes to Canada and not the U.S. That’s issue number 1.
Number 2 is that if you go home for two weeks at Christmas it does count against your 182 days for purposes of the substantial presence test, but the border agent will be more interested in seeing that you intend to return home to Canada where you have your primary residence. He will be looking at one picture, the IRS at another. I wish I could point you to legislation or rules that clearly establish this, we are asked for this constantly but we have to rely on multiple sources of information, legislation, rules and regulations, and sometimes reality.
I would love to have a clear, singular set of rules, but we are dealing with government after all. And governments are strong on clarity.
Let us do the heavy lifting. You sound as if you are sticking to the rules as best you know and that is the most you can do.
Milan
Thank you, Milan.
Hi milan, me and my soon to be wife are planning on moving to Las vegas for six months starting at the beginning of september for work experience. We both work in the kitchen industry and that is not on the approved TN list. What are my other options to be able to work legally during the six month period?
Thanks, Levi
I was told i do not need a visa because it is six months or less
Levi:
For any work you need a visa. The 182 day non-visa allowance is for tourism and visiting only–no work, no earning of money.
Milan
We travel to the US from Alberta and usually are never close to the 182 days. I have been told that if you leave your vehicle in the US like we do and fly home for a month, that month home is still included in the 182 days. If that is the case even though we are not physically in the US we are penalized for being there as our vehicle is still there. Is this a fact?
Jack:
No. You have the 182 days , not your vehicle. But if you have registered or licensed your vehicle in the U.S. you will have problems with it coming back into Canada, and I don’t know how the border agent knows your vehicle has been in the U.S., but if he does know, it’s only reasonable for him to suspect that you were there too. From now on, carry proof of when you returned to Canada, perhaps by airline or passport stamp. That should satisfy him. But do not leave your car there permanently–that opens up whole range of other issues and potential problems.
Milan
Good day!!!
I would like to ask how long can I stay here in manitoba before moving to Edmonton or any parts of canada?can I stay for good?is that possible?
thank you
and also is there any site that I can read about that matter??
Thank you milan=)
Zomj:
I don’t understand your question. Do you live in Manitoba? Are you a legal permanent resident of Canada? If so, you can move throughout Canada whenever and wherever you wish, but I don’t know enough about your situation.
Milan
I was of the understanding that one must spend at least 30 days out of the US before entering again(even for just a day trip) without having that period of time counted towards the 182 day limit. For example I came back to BC for some medical work in late February after being in the US since Jan. 10. I returned to the US after 13 days in BC. Does that 13 days out of the country count as part of my 182 days annually?
Mac:
I wish somebody would kill this 30-day rumour. There is no such mandatory stay. The only thing that relates to 30 days is this: if you return to Canada during a prolonged stay in the U.S., and stay in Canada longer than 30 days that will be considered two separate trips when you return to the U.S. If you return to Canada for only 13 days, it will count as part of your 182 day allotment. But you still are only allowed no more than 182 days in total in a year.
Milan
Hello Milan, great forum.
The question of length of stay in the United States (181 days) gets confused with the substantial presence test formula.
As I understand it, the formula is used to determine if the 8840 form should be filed to prove a closer connection to Canada and not used to fill line 5 on the 8840 form. Some friends use the formula to fill line 5 and that does not seem right to me.
Am I right on this or totally wrong?
Bert:
I’m not sure I fully understand your question but I will take a shot at it.
Line 5 simply asks how many days you have been in the U.S. over the previous 3 years and is used to determine if you are “taxable” in the eyes of the IRS. But the filing of the 8840 substantiates that you have a closer connection to Canada and will pay your taxes there, thus frees you from IRS claims. Thus you are still allowed to stay in the U.S. up to 182 days no matter what you filled in on line 5 .
Milan
I travel to the US from Ontario 2 to 3 times a week. Day trips, golfing and/or shopping (3 to 7 hours each time). Do these day trips count as 1 day towards the 212 days out of province?
Robert:
You seem to be confusing the US immigration law which forbids you from staying in that country as a visitor longer than 182 days a year, and Ontario’s OHIP law which requires you to be present in the province for 212 days a year. If you go to the U.S. for just 3 to 7 hours per day a couple of times, OHIP can hardly keep track of your whereabouts and the fact is you are still physically present at home in Ontario for the rest of the day. If I were you I would wouldn’t worry about OHIP on your schedule, but I would be concerned about the time you are spending in the U.S. which counts even a part of one day (3 or 4 hours shopping) as one full day. Make sure you don’t overshoot that 182 day limit.
Milan
I recently have been going to the US for day trips several times a month we are a border town, plus a few weeks on holidays, with no 30 days between. Am I still considered to be in the US since last Sept. 2012. Would that be 7 months now although total days would only be a few month stay? Am I at risk?
Roberta:
Read my other replies on this 30-day myth. Forget it. It doesn’t exist in your case.
Milan
I understand that US is considering increasing Ontario residents stay to 7 months is this true?
Mary:
No. The U.S. does not deal with individual provinces. And there is nothing in the immigration pipeline with would allow such an extension. Make sure you are not confusing this with Ontario’s decision to allow its residents to stay out of the country for seven months without losing their medicare benefits–which it enacted several years ago.
Milan
If I drive down to Mazatlan Mexico from Alberta Canada ,stay for 4 weeks and fly back to Alberta Canada ,does all of the time I am gone count against the 183 days that I am allowed in the u.s.a. Because of the driving that is done in the u.s.a. ,To get to Mexico .
Thanks
I all depends on how much time you spend in Mexico. If you are there longer than 30 days, that amount will not count against your U.S. allowance. If it is less, all the time will count against your U.S. allowance. You should get all your documentation in order–passport stamps, entry documents into and out of Mexico to show U.S. b order officials.
Milan
Milan…do you know anything about the IRS form 8840 and if so, would you advise any Canadians spending up to there limit of 182 days per calendar year in the US fill one out. If you do know a bit about this form I will have another question for you later.
Thanks for all your advice so far.
Michael
My wife and I are snowbirds and have one child living in the US. We spend about 160 days per year there. I have dual citizenship and pay taxes to Canada, but also complete US tax forms as required. My wife is a Canadian citizen. Are there any particular forms regarding our length of stay we need to complete and forward to the US?
thank you
Steve:
Unless you are working or making money in the U.S. there should be no reason for your to file any more forms–except for the 8840, the Closer Connection to Canada form.
Milan
Michael
If you spend any substantial time in the U.S. you should definitely fill in the 8840. It has a formula by which it determines if you are a taxable alien and if so, it proves you have a closer connection to Canada and releases you from the burden of paying taxes to the IRS. Definitely do it.
Milan
HELLO,
WE HAVE A HOME IN ARIZONA AND A CONDO IN MEXICO, AND WE ARE ALBERTANS. WE WOULD LIKE TO BECOME NON-RESIDENTS OF CANADA, HOW DO WE DO THIS ? AND WHAT ARE THE TAX IMPLICATIONS ? ANY SPECIFIC WEBSITE GIVING GOOD DETAILED INFORMATION ?
THANKS !
Mona:
If you intend to leave Canada permanently there are definitely tax implications–the Canadian government will want a chunk of your assets. Don’t do this alone. Get an immigration lawyer.
Milan
Hi Milan,
We have summer place in US and currently reside in Alberta and abide by the 182 day rule etc. You mentioned not leaving a car permanently in the US in a previous response as that opens up a whole other set of problems. Why is that??
Thanks,
Tammy
Tammy:
It’s not a problem so long as your car is Canadian licensed and registered. Just don’t license it as a U.S. vehicle.
Canadians are not allowed to drive a US car back into Canada.
Milan
Got it! Thanks very much Milan!
I am American and my wife is Canadian. We live in Windsor, ON and as a border community make frequent trips across the border. We are planning on renting our home and buying a motor home to do some travelling part in Canada and part in the US. I have children, grandchildren and other family in the US. We plan on spending time with each of them and still travel back and forth to Canada to spend time with my wife’s family. I wasn’t planning on tracking how many total days we are out of Canada unless I must. OHIP is not really a concern for us. I would expect we would be 4 to 8 weeks out of Canada – 2 to 4 weeks back a time. Do you see any issues with this plan or any special considerations I should keep in mind? Do I need to make sure we don’t exceed 212 days in a 12 month period?
Thanks
Fred
So long as you stick to the old formula of no more than 182 days in the U.S. in the past year you’ll be fine. But you need get have good travel insurance. American hospitals can knock you flat in no time. If you’re thikining abouit long term insurance check with some of our advertisers. They can help you.
Milan
Well….. I should have looked at other logs here before my last note re the form 8840. Sorry!!
I am a full time RV er and my home address …is the RV park where I live 6 months of the year while I work seasonally at a local golf course. This address I use with all my correspondence and I have my mail redirected
while I am state side in the winter.
Line 14 in the 8840 asks for my regular or principal home….and under instructions explains what a permanent home is. I don’t think my ” dwellings ” or living situation fits their ” instructions ”
Please….what do suggest I reply to that.
Michael:
It might fit their requirements, don’t give up hope. There are many Canadians who live in RV communities during the summer. Just have plenty of other documentation of your permanent residency in Canada to prove your closer connection to Canada–such as membership in a church, or rotary club; bank deposits, utility bills, grandchildren you visit, phone connections, emails, etc.
Milan.
Thx Milan for both answers. Did you see the Globe today about the US possibly extending the time for Canadians staying state side from 6 months to 8 months. Have to be over 55 yrs and I think a couple more stipulations. Could be as soon as this summer.
Michael
I wish I could be enthusiastic about these bills but I am too cynical about the U.S. Congress being able to pass anything. This is known as a private members bill–something that hardly ever gets out of committee. These same Congressmen tried a similar attempt a couple of years ago and failed. There is far too much going on in Congress to expect any better for this bill–especially as immigration reform of a different kind is hot on the burner. Stay tuned and we’ll let you know, but don’t hold your breath. A lot of this is sheer politics by guys who want to show their constituents they are trying to drum up business for them.
Milan
Hi Milan,
I live in Manitoba, Canada and I’m not retired but leaving my job to go exploring. Just starting my research to decide which country I could go live in with at least 6 months without a work visa….I’m thinking many countries only allow three month access. Can you tell me of some warmer countries (in the winters) that allow access for up to 6 months without any paperwork? Without any papers such as a work visa, you can’t work there in pretty much everywhere without one right? If anybody has any good recommendations to low cost warm climate countries that are safe – please feel free to give me your thoughts and suggestions.
Thanks!
Tanya:
Working in almost any country without a visa is prohibited. In the U.S. it certainly is, and in most countries of Europe you are allowed to visit for up to 90 days without a visa but not to work. To work you need a visa. Unless you are thinking of Asia you might try the consulates of Italy, Portugal, Greece, Cyprus, North Africa and South America, which has its summer when Manitoba as its winter. You might also try the Caribbean countries which like to have some North Americans to help with their North American tourists.
Milan
Hi Milan,
I would like to know how to calculate the number of days spent in the US. If I was to travel to the US from May21 to May 26, would it be correct to say that I would be in the US for 5 days or 6 days?
Thanks so much!
Val
Val:
Six days. As soon as you step into the U.S it’s a day and while leaving it’s also a day.
Milan
Hi there, im sure you’ve answered these questions a thousand times, I am really sorry I have so many. I have been searching for days and days, researching everywhere and everything and i cant get a consistent answer, either that or i don’t understand the information. I came upon this website and i could tell there was some valuable information on here that i wasn’t getting anywhere else, so you are my only hope!
I live in BC and I am visiting my boyfriend who lives in NC for approx 6 months. I am on disability (PWD). Do you know how long i can stay there without my benefits being compromised?
Its a tough situation because i would like to stay out there for as long as possible, because his dad is ill and i would love to be with my bf as his father doesn’t seem to be doing so well.
So if I wanted to stay longer I would need some sort of visa right? (this would depend on how long i can stay out of the country before my benefits would cut off)
A visitors visa perhaps?
If so, how long does a visitors visa last for?
Another question sorry!
Do i need a visitor visa to apply for an extended stay? or could i just apply for one without a visa?
Sorry more questions!
Do i need to tell the people who deal with my PWD that i am leaving for 6 months? (sorry i forgot what you call them).
One more question that I keep hearing different answers from. If i go to the US for 6 months, how long would I have to wait to go back to the US once I arrive back in Canada? I heard you have to stay back in Canada for at least 6 months, and I also heard its 30 days, and I even heard you could go back the very next day! Which seems strange to me. Just wanted to clarify that.
The plan is to go to the US for 6 months and then come back to Canada for 6 months, and then go back out there for 6 months and so on, until his dad passes away (i know sounds terrible).
I guess there’s no way around all of this without losing my benefits if i decide to stay longer? and like i said, if i decide to do that, i think i would have to apply for some sort of visa, i think right?
In a perfect world, i would stay there with my bf until his dad passes and during that time we would save money for us to come back to Canada, which i know he has to go through a lot of immigration stuff, which is a whole new series of questions i wont bother you with, lol.
Sorry for the rambling and talking in circles, it helped me put things in perspective and i appreciate you reading through this.
I am leaving in about a month, so if you have time at all, i would love to here from you, so i have an idea of whats going to happen.
Thank you so much for being so clear and uncomplicated with how you’ve answered questions in the past, those posts helped me a lot, i just need a little clarity and advice. Anything would be wonderful, ty so much!
Syrina:
A visitor’s visa is what you travel under when you go to the U.S.–except that you don’t have to fill out any forms. It lasts 182 days. There is no visa that last longer unless you get a green card to work, which takes a lifetime to get unless you have some really special skill and an employer is willing to hire you. So far as your Canadian benefits are concerned–I don’t know which you get–so I can’t answer that but if you are talking about provincial health insurance you are now allowed 7 months, since you are from B.C. If you get CPP and OAS, you can get those so long as you live no matter where you live.
Milan
I am a Canadian citizen. I am currently staying with my husband who lives in the States, while we wait for my interview date in Canada. He is an American Citizen.
For months, Ive been trying to find out how long a Canadian can visit the States for without a visa. Well it looks like I’ve blown it. Ive been in the States since July 2012.
What should I do ?
Gen:
If you are waiting for permanent status you are no longer a visitor. I would suggest you get back home and get to your U.S.consulate right away to ask about the status of your application. There are rules about where you can live while waiting for such application. They have the technology to tell you exactly where your application is.
Milan
Hola Milan
I have followed this topic since the beginning – you make everything very clear, and thank you.
As a B.C. Resident, I have awaited the news of the increase from 6 to 7 months out of Province for health insurance. It now appears that we are able to stay away 212 days in a calendar year. I have only learned of this by way of your last statement dated May 15th at 1416.
Having just returned from Mexico for our “Winter Break”, I haven’t seen anything on or in the news.
We do of course buy additional health insurance, but good to know we now have that extra leeway.
Is there a website that I may access to read the full new regulations.
Thank you and regards
Bill
Bill
The legislation was passed and is retroactive to January 1. You can find all the details about that on the MSP website. B.C. now joins Ontario which increased it’s out-of-country allowance to 7 seven months several years ago. Manitoba has also recently stretched its out-of-country allowance to 7 months. Newfoundland allows up to eight months.
Milan
Hello,
I recently returned from a trip to Mexico (we flew from the USA). I heard from the US customs officer that they are now scanning everyone’s passport. Does this mean that the US and Canada have started communicating better and will be keeping track of how long Canadians have been out of Canada?
I wasn’t specifically counting the days I have been out of the country – I’m assuming I should start.
Thanks for your response!
Shelly
Shelly:
The answer to all of your questions is Yes.
Milan
Good Day Milan,
I am a Canadian citizen and live in the province of Newfoundland. I understand that if you are a Newfoundlander travellling to the US for winter months, you can stay up to 8 months (less a day, I’m assuming) without your medicare being compromised. I am retiring this year and intend to winter in Florida because of Arthritis. I understand that Newfoundland would allow me to stay in the Unites States for 8 months but the United States would only allow me 6 months (less a day). Am I correct in assuming that if I wanted to stay for the 8 mnths set out by the legislature in our province that I would have to apply for a US VisitorsVisa as well as fill out 8840 IRS form for income tax purposes to denote that my home is maintained in Newfoundland and not Florida.
Us poor souls need the eight momths. Here it is May 19th, 2013 and we were just graced with 58 centimeters of snow…….
Ruby:
I sympathize with you. And though Newfoundland allows you to stay out of the province 8 months, the U.S. does not allow more than 182 days. Unfortunately, there is no visitor’s visa to extend that period. Getting a visa to live permanently in the U.S. is extremely difficult and is usually based on the applicants being able to get a job and be able to prove it. There are also family visas, but they take so long, I know of people who expired while in the wait list. I am afraid, from what I discern in your note, that you are stuck with the 182 day maximum– but then you can always go to Bermuda or the Caribbean or Portugal for the additional two months, although that is costly. About the 8840–you should file that every year regardless. If you spend any significant amount of time in the U.S. you may be considered a taxable alien. The 8840 can save you from that tax obligation by documenting that you have a closer connection to Canada. By all means, file your 8840 every year.
Milan