How Long Can A Canadian Snowbird Stay Out of the Country?
That is the most frequent question I hear from Canada’s snowbirds, who will be making close to one million out-of-country trips this coming season. The rules are not the same for all provinces. Read on to find out more.
How long you can stay out of the country depends on two things: your own provincial rules on medicare eligibility, and how long your host country (for most snowbirds that’s the United States) allows you to stay as a visitor. These are two separate sets or rules, and they don’t necessarily coincide.
Let’s deal with the provincial rules first. All provinces, except Ontario and Newfoundland, require you to actually live in your home province for at least six months plus a day (183 days in most years) in order to be considered a permanent resident of that province, and therefore qualified for provincial health insurance (medicare) benefits. That means actually residing in your home province and being able to prove it, if necessary, not simply owning a residence there and living in Portugal, Mexico or California for eight or nine months. That means you are allowed to be out-of-the province for half a year less a day—182 days. (Caution: once you are out of your province, that 183-day clock starts ticking. So if you ordinarily live in Manitoba and want to stay with family in Ontario for a month before leaving for Florida,
you will only have five months left to spend in the Sunshine State.)
Ontario allows you to be out of the country for 212 days (seven months) and Newfoundland for eight months without risking loss of your medicare benefits.
If you stay out of your province longer than that, you risk losing your “residency” and with it your medicare benefits, and you will then have to re-instate your eligibility by living in your province for three straight months (without leaving) before you get those benefits back. And you will have to be able to prove that you have complied.
Since there are no provincial border police, you can expect a certain flexibility in how these rules are applied and I know of quite a few people who bend the rules to get a few extra days here or there. If it becomes an issue with your provincial authorities (that is, if your neighbor snitches on you and you are caught) the provincial authorities might well average out your out-of-province stays for the past two or three years to see how you measure up against that six-month threshold. They will not likely prosecute you if you are over by a few of days in one year. But as a general rule, it’s best to simply add up how many days you have been out of the country in a given year in total, and stay within the limits.
The other set of rules are set by your host country and have nothing to do with the medicare eligibility rules in your home province. The U.S. rules are also somewhat flexible, but you best understand them. Generally, you are allowed to stay in the U.S. for up to six months without a visa (more about this later) so long as the border agent allowing you in feels you have the wherewithal to support yourself, that you intend to return to Canada within that six month limitation, that you do not intend to stay in the U.S. permanently (illegally), and that you have a “greater connection” to Canada than to the U.S. If he feels you are manipulating the rules and actually living more in the U.S. than in Canada he can deny you entry and there’s not much you can do about it.
If you overstay that six-month allowance and are seen to be doing so by border agents you will likely be put on a restricted list and denied entry to the U.S. for a number of years. It’s too complicated to list the restrictions and penalties here—just, don’t do it.
If you do overstay and you are seen to be more of a U.S. resident than a Canadian one, you may well be required to pay taxes in the U.S. as well as in Canada and you don’t want that.
Travelling back and forth across the border has become a little more complicated over the past few years, but it is still relatively easy for Canadians due to certain dispensations the U.S. offers its northern neighbor. In effect visitors from Canada are “deemed” to be travelling into the U.S. on a visitor’s visa even if you don’t have the paperwork to prove it. But if you want to stay longer than six months, you will have to apply for the real thing and that is a more complicated process—not for discussion here.
How do you prove your legitimacy and your domicile and your residency to a curious border agent?
Get a passport. And if you don’t already have one, shame on you. This is the 21st century and if you want the privilege of being able to travel to foreign countries (and remember, it is a privilege and not a right) then accept the obligation of being able to prove who you are.
And remember most of all, that once you leave your province and enter another country, your medicare benefits stay behind and you become responsible for paying for your own medical costs. You will be lucky if your provincial medicare pays 10 cents on the dollar of any foreign hospital bills you generate.
That’s what out-of-country travel health insurance is for.
Are the 183 days allowed out of the country for the calendar year, or can you be out of the country for 183 days at the end of a calendar year and stay for the first 183 of the next year without coming home?
Wally
No. The border agent would see what you’re trying to do and he has the power to
keep you out or otherwise sanction you. The intention is that you don’t make the U.S. your de facto home when you’re not entitled to it. There also are some border agents who consider the 182 (not 3) days to be used in a 12-month period, and if they want to do that, they will. You can’t argue with them.
Milan
As first time travellers to the US I would like to know if I can stay 182 days in a calender year
example
I would like to go in October 2012, I would come back in April 2012.
I would then like to return to the US in November 2013 and stay until April 2014
Is it 182 days in a calendar year or in a 12 month period
Loretta:
Yes you can do as you say. Actually, you are not allowed to exceed 182 days in either a calendar year or a rolling 12 month period.
Milan
We were in Florida for 73 days from January 8th to March 20th this year. That means I have 110 days left in 2012 before I reach my max of 183 days. If I go back to Florida on October 1st. that will only be 92 days so I’m still below my max. Question is, would I only have 91 days left in my winter trip and if I came home for Christmas would I re-start my 183 day calender?
Hal:
First off: It’s 182 days max–not 183. Also, do your own math, my calculator broke down, but here’s the rule: no more than 182 days total in the U.S. in the previous 12 month period, or in any calendar year. But the main factor is the border control agent who must be satisfied you are a permanent resident of Canada and are intending to go back to Canada. Those agents have a lot of discretion and if they’re convinced you do not intend to abuse the rules, they can let a few days slide. It’s up to them. I just give you the rules. They are the ones who can bend, or enforce them.
Milan
I am a Canadian residing in Ontario. I also have property in Florida. Each time I fly to Florida the customs agent stamps ‘B2′ or ‘B1/B2 on my passport and adds a date 6months later. If I come home for Christmas and return in January, the customs agent does the same thing when I return to the US, stamping the B1/B2 and giving a date 6 months later. I know that for tax purposes I cannot exceed 6 months in the US but the B1/B2 stamp on my passport seems to indicate that, for customs/immigration purposes the six month limit is a per trip limit. For tax purposes I file form 8840 -Closer Connection for Aliens. Although I would be subject to US taxes etc if I spend more than 6 months in the US it seems that the provisions of the B Visa permits legal stays in the US longer than 6 months notwithstanding the tax consequences. Can you comment?
William:
The stamp limiting you to six months simply indicates that on that particular trip you are not allowed longer than six months. But if you want to return earlier it does not preclude you from doing that and it does not override the rule that you must stay no longer than six months in a calendar year.
On the tax issue, you are wise to file the 8840. It substantiates your understanding of the rule and that means something to the border agent. But there is a widespread misconception about the about the six month rule and taxation that needs clarification.
Some seem to think (and this includes some accountants) that you can stay in the U.S. .longer than 182 days if you are willing to pay taxes to the U.S. Not so. You can be subject to taxation even if you stay less than 182 days–if you have investments, earn income via rentals, otherwise earn money. But unless you have a visa, or green card, you still can’t stay longer than 182 days. Paying taxes or being subject to taxation does not absolve you of that rule.
Milan
Many years ago my wife and I used to be US residents; therefore our work history is from United States. Now all of us are Canadian citizens. We have a son who was born in US and therefore is US citizen by birth and Canadian by naturalization.
He is moving to US to attend University there, although he is US citizen but moving alone to US is still new for him because he never lived there.
Therefore we were planning that one parent go with him for 5 months to let him settle down. When the first parent return to Canada the other parent spends 4 to 5 months with him until the school year ends.
We have no plans of staying more than 5 months in any given year; we only want him to settle there on his own.
Although we are Canadian citizens and live in Canada but source of income for both parents is United States social security disability benefits because of our United States work history.
Do you believe US immigration will think we have more connection with US than Canada because of the US social security disability benefits?
Although we do not own property but wee rent an apartment here for more than 10 years now and we do have substantial amounts of investments in Canada. Our son cannot file family sponsored Green card for parents until he turns 21 years old, otherwise there is no problem. I am also considering going to University in US, in that case F1 visa will solve this problem.
Can you please make some suggestions or advice according to your experience in this situation? We will appreciate for your help.
Tony:
You are allowed to collect U.S. social security benefits so that’s not a problem.
Also, so long as as you and your wife alternate your visits, and don’t work in the U.S. and don’t spend more than 6 months per year each, there should be no problem.
The best way for you to establish your closer connection to Canada is to complete
and file an 8840 form which establishes that you have a closer connection to Canada–you have a home there, you have social relationships there, you work there, etc.
As for you going to university in the U.S. that is another issue and you should be careful. If you want to be with your son as a visitor, be a visitor. If you go as a student, you are in another category and you need a visa and you no longer sound like a Closer Connection Canadian to me. Also be mindful of your Canadian medicare–you don’t want to lose that.
Milan
I understand that for medical services plan health coverage in British Columbia I need to be
physically present in British Columbia for six months, also defined
many trip as 183 days, I want to be away the maximum . Is it correct to say if I go to
the United States and return the same day, it counts as a day in BC because I would be in BC
part of the day? Similarly, if I go on a Monday and return four days later on a Friday, would I be
counted as present in BC on both Monday and Friday as I spent part of each day in BC?
(please note that my question relates to medical coverage only — most of my time away is to
other countries that I obtain visas for),
Second question — How do the medicare administators know how long I have been away, over multiple
trips in various calendar years? I do not even remember. Specifically, are they able to obtain records
of every entry and exit from Canada from Canadian border patrol or from some similar federal agency?
Thank You
Andrew:
I don’t think anyone in the health ministry would slice and dice it as fine as that. They usually only get to cases if they have been quite egregious so I would say if you have been in B.C. for part of any day, that would count as a day at home.
And you’re right, they really don’t know when you’ve been out of the country that precisely. The ministry has no one out there counting your footsteps. But cases often come to light when someone else points the finger, or makes an issue of it, or you make some medical claims that can place you out of the province for lonbger periods. Maybe you have a neighbour you don’t get along with, or you really have been publicizing your absences. Do government agencies share information? There are indications this is increasing, but not in respect to trying to disqualify your medicare. There isn’t the manpower for it.
Milan
We left Alberta Oct 15 2011 for Yuma Arizona. We had to fly home for a week for family emergency. When do we have to safely go over the border in order to be safely home in time according to the law?
Cydnee:
Six months from October 15, 2011 is April 15, 2012. The week you spent at home for the family emergency doesn’t count. It’s part of your six month allowance.
Milan
I thought you were allowed 182 days in the states in a calendar year. Why are you counting the week spent back in Canada as part of the 182 day limit ?
Bill
W.A.:
Because that’s the way the U.S. border patrol counts it. It’s their rule. If you return to Canada for a brief visit–less than 30 days– they count it against your six months. If you return to Canada and stay over 30 days before returning ot the U.S. they will not count it against your six month stay. This is usually applied for snowbirds who spend the entire winter in the south and return “home” for Christmas or other short visits.
Milan
Dear Milan,
I am a Canadian wishing to live with my US girlfriend in the US.
I would like to do this for longer than 6 or 7 months.
I work for a Canadian magazine and can work from my computer anywhere in the world.
What are my options?
Thank you very much,
Chris
Chris:
It’s tough to get the best of both worlds. Your options don’t exist, unless you can get a green card and live legally in the U.S. And that is very hard to do and takes a long time unless you can get someone in the U.S. to hire you. What you describe, can’t be done…legally.
Milan
Hi there,
I’m a Nova Scotian, interested in attending a state college in Florida. It’s a full-time, 2 year course, and Florida residents can receive significant tuition savings over non-residents/internationals. The state requires that you maintain a residency for one year prior to the beginning of classes to qualify for the discount. I’m wondering if it would be possible for me to go to the United States and begin establishing residency in FLA, staying for six months, then returning to Canada quickly (few weeks), and spending an additional six months in the States. (FYI, would be ok with losing NS health care benefits/paying US taxes). I do not want to ask this at my consulate as I’m afraid it would be construed (maybe rightly) as attempted immigration fraud.
I am also wondering what visa/requirements would be needed for the further two years of study, and whether I would be able to keep/regain my Nova Scotian privileges (including student loans/financial aid). Also, how would NS Health find out about my non-residency, assuming I asserted that I still resided at my parents’ NS home? And how do immigration/border officials know your history?
Alex:
Too many questions for one blog. But I’ll take the main one: How do you intend to establish residency in Florida? You need either a green card or a visa and those are very difficult to get unless you can get a job and are granted permanent residency. You can’t just go to Florida and stay beyond six months (which is illegal) and say you are a Florida resident. Your plan for hopscotching between Nova Scotia and Florida to get the benefits of both sounds totally impractical. It’s also unethical/
Milan
I’m a canadian residing in Ontario.
1. I understand i’m allowed 212 days in US but if I go to the US for only 182, does it mean i’m allow to travel some more anywhere in the world?
2. Let say i snowbird for US and during that time i want to go to Cuba from the state border, is this a problem with the US gov’t? And if i spend 2 weeks overthere, can i subtract those 2 weeks off my 212 days?
thank you
Sonia:
You are not allowed 212 in the U.S.–only 182. But you are allowed 212 days out of Ontario without losing your medicare. If you stay 182 days in the U.S. you are allowed to travel out of Ontario for the the remaining 30 days. But you are not allowed to travel to Cuba from any point in the U.S. It’s against U.S. law. If you want to go to Cuba, you have to go there directly from Canada.
Milan
Hi
I have been reading the questions, comments etc. but I do not see my query answered. I am a new snowbird but I travel back and forth to Florida each month. I know about the ‘closer connection’ form. My husband says that the true rules are that you cannot stay more than 182 days but it is a total of three years. All of year one plus 1/3 of the year before plus 1/6 of the year before that. He says that this amount must total 182 or less. My next query is do you count parts of days, i.e. travel days, because you are in the US for part of the day, or just overnights?
Cookie:
If I haven’t answered your query it’s because I haven’t seen it. I would have remembered the name Cookie. Your husband is confusing the Substantial Presence Test and the allowance for Canadians visiting the U.S. for tourism purposes–two quite different rules. The Substantial Presence Test is based on a three year formula which determines if you have been in the U.S. long enough to
be subject to U.S. tax laws. You can usually avoid such taxation filings if you complete and submit an IRS 8840 form. Every Canadian who spends several months in the U.S. every year should do this. It’s not hard and it keeps you in good standing. For details, go to the IRS.gov website and look up Publication 519. That gives you all the details.
But that has nothing to do with how long you can stay in the U.S. as a visitor, which is six months (or 182 days–not always the same thing) per year. That can be in one long stretch or in an aggregation of short trips. And every day you touch foot in the U.S.–whether going or coming back from you destination counts as a day off that total.
Milan
i have been in the US for just over six months, trying to get everything set up to attend school in the US. i have one final document to get at the border. so if i cross the border back into canada and then back into the US shortly after to attend school. will i be denied entry ?
Ashley:
If you have no student visa you may be kept out. If you have been in the U.S. as a visitor for longer than six months, you may also be kept out. That depends solely on the border patrol agent. They’re the ones who call the shots. Seems like you haven’t been following the rules.
Milan
As someone with some legal training, I have struggled to find the 183 day limit anywhere in the law or on the US government websites. I would appreciate if you could direct me to the source of this position. Is it simply a CPB practice point, or is there really some basis for denying entry once the 183 days has been exceeded?
Keep struggling. There is no single legal document that articulates all aspects of the six month (182 day) rule; there are many sources you have to go to. This is a derivative of legislation drafted back in the 90′s and if you have ever tried to find the definitive source of such laws you will find they often reside in the administrative directives that the bureaucrats use to implement them. If you have ever tried to follow the trail from legislation to implementation, you know what I mean. The six month rule is one of these. You could grow old trying to track down all the sources–that’s what governments do to people. But if you want to keep trying, you start at the CBP.gov site and work your way from there. Good luck.
Milan
I am an Ontario Canada citizen who has been in Florida since 0ct. 31 2011. My question is, do I have to be back back in Ont. 182 days from Oct. 31 or is it 212 days? I read the other comments on this and 1 answer is 182 days the other is 212 days. Not quite sure what the actual answer is.
Linda:
There have not been two different answers. There have been two different questions. Pay attention.
The U.S. allows you to visit for up to six months (about 182 days, according to the months you are away). That means you have to leave the U.S. by the end of April. Ontario allows you to be out of the province for seven months (212 days) in the previous 12, and still retain your residency and your provincial health benefits. If they catch you staying out of the province for a longer period they can disqualify you from medicare. These are two separate laws. They have nothing to do with each other. Got it?
Milan
Hello Milan,
I appreciate you answering these questions.
I’m a Canadian citizen who’s planning on entering the U.S. as a guest/tourist to visit some friends. I’m planning on staying for a week — and have hence bought a return ticket for seven days later — but once there may have an opportunity to stay at another friend’s place for much longer.
My question is this: If I tell the border guards that I’m entering the U.S. for only a week, but then end up staying 3-4 months, is that a problem? Will they know that I haven’t returned to Canada? Will they even care, as long as I don’t stay over my 182-day limit?
Thanks!
Ryan:
I wish I knew how old you are. It would be easier to answer your question. But I will assume you’re not a snowbird. The scenario you present is problematic. If you are so impreecise about your plans as to not be certain if you are staying a week or six months, the border agent is likely to turn you down altogether. Do you have a job? Can you, at the last moment, decide to stay away from your job for six months? If so, how will you support yourself? Or are you actually going to the U.S. to see if you can find a job, which as a visitor you can’t do.
The border agent has a lot of discretion, and if he’s not satisfied you are returning to your home when you say you are, you have a problem. You do not have a “right” to visit the U.S. for 182 days, it’s a privilege. And these days, with cross border information being shared as generously as it is, you must assume they know when you come and when you go.
Milan
Hey Milan,
Thanks again for your time and advice.
I am young, but my friends are generous and I have enough money saved up to last for a few months. I have a flexible job in Canada and a return ticket for one week. I plan on telling the border guard that I’ll be visiting for one week, and for all I know, I will return in one week. However, the crux of my question is if when in the U.S., my other friend can let me stay at his place for a couple months (he’s still unsure if this is a possibility), will I get in trouble for doing so? Will some red flag in their system pop up when my initial one-week stay is over?
Hi Milan:
My brother has been going to Germany for six months of the year for the past 5 years – generally from April 23 of one year to October 23 of same year. Is he allowed to go back to Germany that same year in December and stay there for two months without compromising his Canadian benefits. Would he be able to get permission to do this from a Canadian government source?
Thank you
Hilde
Hilde:
If you are concerned about your brother losing his provincial health benefits, you need to determine if he is out of the country longer than your province allows. Since I don’t know which province your brother lives in, I can’t answer that. And if he is staying out of the country longer than allowed by his provincial rules, and doing it every year, I doubt he will get any special permission to continue doing it.
Milan
Hi there,
I must say that your replies and knowledge in this area are very impressive…
I am a Canadian (Quebec resident) and my spouse (citizen of country that requires visa to US/Canada) is visiting US (doesn’t have Canadian visa though) to meetup relatives.
1) Is it possible that I stay with her for 3-4 months in a city close to US border and drive each morning to work in Canada (30-45 min drive that I’m willing to do) and return in evenings back, during these 3-4 months
2) Does it help to get any of the documents that makes the border crossing faster like N exus etc
Thanks
Arnav M
What you suggest is unusual, but it may be possible. If you can get a Nexus, that would help. Give that a try.
Milan
Thanks for your response.. my concern is if this can be termed as an accepted reason to travel everyday across the border..
Amav:
It all depends on the view of the border control officer, and he might very conclude that you are “living” in the the U.S. There’s no clear cut regulation to cover hat you’re talking about. Why don’t you try it once and ask the officer? It’s his choice.
Milan
Much appreciated Milan!
Hi Milan
I’ve heard there’s a push by a number of US politians to increase the 183 day limit to 8 months under certain conditions, one being ownership of US property over a certain threshhold, umoured to be $250K. Is this actively being persued and if so, will it be on a state by state or federal basis? Arizona along with a number of other states rely heavily on Canadian purchasing power.
Thanks
Henry
Henry:
I wrote about this a couple of months ago :http://travelinsurancefile.com/headlines/u-s-retiree-visa-plan-no-big-deal-for-snowbirds/. The short answer is, don’t expect much. The business of Congress now is getting re-elected.
Milan
What information do US and Canadian border people share? I’ve heard that what the US customs officer in the booth sees on his screen is when you haved crossed into the US in the past and the info that is on your drivers licence. The same with entering into Canada. I’ve been told the owness is on the individual to show how long they’ve stayed in or out of the country.
Apparently the US and Canadian systems are not yet linked and don’t share information real time. Is this the case? Also, how does our privacy act come into play with the sharing of information?
Henry
How many days is a Canadian considered to be in the U.S. if they fly into a U.S. port city, board a cruise ship that is leaving that same day for a 7 day cruise to non U.S. territories? On return to the port direct transportation to the airport and flight home is the same day.
For Provincial count I would count that as 8 days out of province & country, but is it also 8 days in the U.S.?
Thank you for your help Betty
Betty:
Eight days in the U.S. Province, eight days out of province–they don’t care where you’ve been.
Milan
Thank you Milan. Could you clarify if the U.S. border guard would count that eight days as part of our allowable 182 days visiting the states. Or would they just count the 2 days on either end when we passed through their airports?
I live in BC and travel through the US to live in Mexico for the 182 days for the winter. , because I am in the US only 3 days on the way down and again on the way back, do they still count that as the full amount of days allowed, or would I be able to travel to the US in the summer for a week or so?
Because I have an FM3 I could stay in Mexico longer if I wanted to…..do you know of any provincial health plan that makes an allowance for staying out of the country longer than the 182 days?
If I were to give up the provincial health plan to stay longer in Mexico, is there any other penaltly like cutbacks in the OAS or pensions that I recieve now?
Thanks you for your help.
Irena
Irena:
Your first question is unclear. What I think you want to know is: on your trips down and back you have used up 6 of the 182 days allowed to stay in the U.S. But you must tell the U.S. border agent on entry. He can instruct you how to proceed. That would leave you lots of times to visit the U.S. on other vacations.To make your case, if you have evidence of where you will be staying in Mexico, any lease or rental agreements or other documents to show you will be staying in Mexico and not the U.S., have them on hand.
On your second question, Ontario allows you to be out of the province for seven months, Newfoundland for eight. All the others require at least 183 days.
You would lose your provincial residency, but not your Canadian citizenship and if you are now qualified for full OAS and Pension, you can receive those wherever you are. If you move out of Canada permanently you have tax obligations with the federal government you would have to file.
Milan
My boyfriend and I are Canadian and we live in the USA during the winter because he plays hockey. I am from Saskatchewan so I understand that I can only be here 6 months less a day. But since we are common law I was wondering if I am allowed to stay with him until hockey is over and his visa is done with? I had heard from some friends that since they are married she can stay as long as he does in the USA without any problem.
Andrea:
You can’t get any extra time just because your boyfriend is waiting for his visa. You need to work out something more permanent and that means going to the U.S. consulate and seeing what your options are. Also, your friend’s advice is not necessarily accurate, but since I don’t know all the details I can’t comment more precisely. Certainly, it is easier if you’re married.
Milan
Hi Milan,
My mother is a Canadian citizen and resident of Alberta. She is 70 yrs old and a retired nurse. Soon, she will be coming to visit me, in Seattle, as I’m expecting my first child shortly. Her initial visit with me will be for almost 3 months. After that she will return to Alberta for some time (probably stay there longer than 30 days), and then come back to the States for another 3 months. I understand that Canadians are allowed to visit the U.S. for up to 6 months per calendar year without any special visa requirements. She is not a ‘snow-bird’ at all but basically coming to help me with new born child care. My questions are: do you think she will have any trouble coming or going? Also, will her Alberta Healthcare Insurance be disrupted or canceled in any way? Thanks, Milan!
Mary:
If your mother is simply visiting you, her family, and doesn’t stay in the U.S. any longer than six months in total there should be no problem. And if she is not out of Alberta for longer than six months per year, there should be no problem either. She does not require any visa for such a visit. If the border agent asks, make sure she tells him she is just visiting family, not working, and will be returning to Alberta.
Milan
My husband and I bought a house in Florida two years ago. We own and actively work in our businesses in Nova Scotia. We travel back and forth – for 7 – 17 days about 10 months of the year and is strictly for vacation. IS the “year” considered the past 365 days – and the total number of days in the usa in and out during that that period – or is it specifically a calendar year?
Angela:
The 182 days works two ways but it amounts to the same thing. You are not allowed more than 182 days in a calendar year–neither are you allowed 182 days within the past 12 months. With you going down for such short periods several times a year, you won’t have any problems.
Milan
My wife and I have been spending the Winter’s in florida for 22 yeae’s.
We fly down and back via Air Canada.We own a Florida home.
From time to time air Canada has Union stike problems.
If our flight is delayed or resheduled due to a Strike, do we have any days grace added to 183 days because of this problem or do we have find some other means of getting back to Ontario witin the alotted time.Thanks in advance.PeterL
Peter:
No grace. Try another airline. Air Canada’s too expensive anyway. Don’t worry too much about a day or two here or there, these guys are not fascists. They’ll listen to reason.
Milan
When filling out an 8840, how specific do you need to be with Questions 28 and 29. In 28, i assume most retired people have some type of stock portfolio that touches on USA dividends and/or interest. In 29, how do you go about listing countries if you have EAFA or emerging market notes or stock.
I am an Ontario resident with a home in Florida, I understand that you may remain in the US for 182 days but is that per Calandar Year Jan to Dec. ? If not how do you start calculating the time I sometimes stay a couple months at a time and some times stay 2 weeks come home 3weeks ect.
Pamela:
Look at my answer to the previous questioner. Do not exceed a total of 182 days in either a calendar year or the past 12 months. You can do that in one stretch or an aggregation of shorter trips. If you go to the U.S. for a long period and return home for less than 30 days during that single trip, it will be counted as part of the 182. If you return home for more than 30 days, it will not be counted as part of your allotted 182 days.
Milan
Hi
I am semi retired , live in Ontario across from Detroit , have my own business, sales representative for US Based companies but I sell to manufactures in Ontario. I travel to Michigan 1-3 times a week for sales meetings and engineering followup. I also at times travel to the US FOR SPORT ACTIVITIES , GOLF , THEATRE and DINNER. I also spend 5 months in Florida with two trips home by air for XMAS AND SPRING Break. My question is this : My daily trips for business or pleasure and returning back to Ontario in the evening , no over night stays are these considered part of the 182 day period. I look at the wording Staying in the US versus a daily visit . These daily visits may amount to 30 – 40 over a time period of 7 months. Can you explain .
thanks
Stu:
I take it you have a visa to to attend regular business meetings and engineering followup? This is not be covered by your visitors visa which is granted only for non-work related leisure or tourism visits. When you go to the U.S. do you tell the border agent you are going for a sales meeting? If you’re doing cross-border work, there are visas for that. You need to check this out with the U.S. consulate before you run into problems.
Milan
I have read with great interests all the questions and answers and I pretty much understand the 182 day thing, I am a resident of Quebec and my husband and I own a condo in Florida and a cottage in upstate New York. I don’t need to draw you a picture, we are quite often in the US but rarely for more than a week at a time. For instance, we might go to Florida for a total of four or five days and come back to Quebec. Or, we go and spend all our week ends at the cottage (leaving Friday afternoon and come back on Sunday afternoon). But all this traveling, even for very short periods of time add up and by looking at my husband’s cell phone bill, I notice that he has spent more than 182 days in a 365 day period. So far, he has not been denied access to the US and we asked the question to a border agent and he told us basically that as long as we go back to Canada, he doesn’t see a problem with that. My question: do you think that because we never go for long periods at a time (we go less than 1 week) that we can have a break ?
thank you in advance for your reply Milan,
Anna:
Border agents differ a lot. They have a lot of discretion and the one you spoke to is obviously a common sense guy who sees you are not a threat and is willing to cut you some slack. But perhaps there may be others were are more strict and you never know which one you’re going to get. They like to judge people by what they see: in your case, they’re satisfied. But I can only quote you the rule–and that is no more than six months (182 days) in the U.S. over the calendar year or the past 12 months. The rest is up to the border agent.
Milan
As a snowbird who bought a Florida home in 2011 I am amazed to see you say
that a visit back to Canada of less than 30 days is considered as part of the days in the US. But I am more astonished that “a cruise ship …..(on) a 7 day cruise to non U.S. territories fr the US ” is still considered part of days in the US. So if I went on a cruise from FL for 2 wks to eg. South America or the Caribbean that would still be part of my days in the US !?
Mary:
The 30-day rule you refer to is usually applied to people on long visits in the U.S., say five or six months. If you just travel in on short visits, its the actual days in and out that are counted. But if you and your snowbird friends take a short cruise out of a U.S. port while you are there for the winter, those days count as part of the 182.
Milan
OK. I concede that by creative book keeping the US requires I return to Canada in 6 months eg Oct 15 – Apr 15 even if I am actually out of the country on some trips shorter than 30 days so that I really was NOT there all that time. That would be an immigration issue. What about a taxation issue. ie. If I file a 8840 do I count the days I was REALLY there or do I include the days I was out of the country on the short trips? Mary
Hi! I am a canadian resident from province of Québec , I am a snowbird, Ileft quebec the first of november 2011 and I entend to go back at the end of may 2012 I will come back in Florida october first 2012 for 6 months can you tell me if this is o.k. with united states!!! I thank you very much !
Jeanne:
As I count it, when you go back to Quebec at the end of May, you will have been in the the U.S. for seven straight months. That’s way over your limit, which allows you only six months out of the last 12. Then you want to go back again in October for another six? That means in the calendar year 2012 you will have been in Quebec for only four months. Let me re-state it again: you’re allowed up to 182 days (no more) in the previous 12 months, or 182 days in any calendar year. You are way over that.
Milan
Milan
We are snowbirds who come home at Christmas for a week or two, I have read your remarks regarding this time still being counted as part of my 182 days. My question is where is this published, I have queried US border officials about this and have yet to find one who is aware of it. Their usual response is look it up on our website, I’ve tried that and as you have previously stated about finding a Govt. publication – Good Luck. Can you point me to a publication that lists this? I’ve also heard that day trips in and out of the US the same day aren’t counted towards the 182 day allotment, though I would doubt this to be true.
Thanks in advance for any info you may be able to provide.
John:
I understand your frustration, but I cannot point you to one publication that has this published because there is not one government publication–out of the zillions of pages they print each year– that neatly summarizes the rules for Canadians. Part of this is due to the fact that Canadians are granted all kinds of exemptions to the immigration and visiting laws that apply to other nationals so you have to dig through the exceptions and exemptions etc., to find the operative rules. Then, you have to take into consideration the way border agents themselves interpret and apply the rules. They differ because the primary aim of the agent is to weed out the bad guys and let the good guys enter and have a good time. If they are convinced you are a good, solid, dyed in the wool Canadian who has every intention of returning home and will not fade into the undocumented underground, he won’t hassle you.
As for day trips: they are counted and are part of the 182 day allotment.
WOW. I am truly impressed with your knowledge of topic. Thanks for all the great responses.
Question: Does an Ontarian need to return and remain in Ontario for 30 days in order for the return time to be counted as time spent in their province? I understand that this is what the US requires. ie: Be out of their country for the 30 days.
I have developed a simple spreadsheet that, once you enter the days spent out of your province, it automatically calculates the number of days remaining for travel, based on a rolling calendar. It also has the formula for calculating the “substantial presence test”. If you are interested in receiving and reviewing I will gladly send it to you. Please provide your email address. Thanks.
Malcolm:
I would love to see your spreadsheet. It sounds great. Send it to me at mkorcok@aol.com.
Re your question. There is no such 30-day requirement by either Ontario or the U.S. Ontario only cares that you are in the province, physically, for at least five months within the previous 12 (a rolling year) so as to retain your OHIP. The U.S. does not require you to go home for 30 days before re-entering. That’s a misinterpretation of a rule that states that long term visitors to the U.S, like snowbirds, must count short return trips to Canada (e.g. Christmas) as part of their 182 day allotment–unless that return trip is for 30 days or longer, in which case the return to the U.S. counts as a new trip.
Milan
I have traveled quite a bit to the U.S. and back to Canada. I think I am approaching my 182 days. My question is, can the U.S. Border see the number of times I have returned to Canada and how long I have stayed in Canada when he swipes my Passport.
Thnx
Milan, I have more than 1 question, so hopefully you can answer them all for me:
I am very disturbed/upset by the extremely poor US healthcare/medical system, and other detrimental changes to the middle class in the United States.
My husband and I have dual US/Canadian citizenship; we have lived and worked these past 25 years in US.
We are now thinking of becoming “snowbirds”, once my husband retires in 10 years, as I am terrified we’ll lose everything in USA due to an unexpected medical crisis. How long does it take to be covered by the Canadian medical system after moving to Canada from the USA? Are we only required to file both US and Canadian income taxes as long as we own a home in the USA? When, and IF, we sell our house in the USA, and buy a home in Canada, would we then only be required to file Canadian taxes? Both of us will be receiving both Canadian CPP/OAP, and US social security, and I receive a pension payment from my US employer. Please advise. THANK YOU!
PS: Final (sensitve question):
IF we do incur medical debt in the US that we are unable/unwilling to repay, can the US government force us to repay it or attach any liens to our US Social Security if we move to Canada full-time? Will we be protected from the Canadian government against harassment or legal action by the US government?
THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING ALL MY QUESTIONS!!!
Maureen:
Wow. That’s a lot of questions. I can’t answer them all because I would need to know more, but I’ll take a few.
First of all, get rid of your paranoia about the U.S. healthcare system. For 85 percent of the people who have health insurance it works very well, and since you have worked in the U.S. for 25 years do you not now have health insurance? I certainly get a level of care I could never get in Canada and I have a Medicare HMO, as millions of other Americans do. I too am a dual Canadian/American citizen. Certainly by the time you reach 65 you will qualify for U.S. Medicare and those benefits you can take with you when you re -visit the U.S.
I can’t answer the questions on taxation because I am not a tax expert and whether or not you must file with the IRS after you return to Canada depends on many things I don’t know about from your question, among them, if you intend to retain your US citizenship. U.S. citizens, no matter where they live, are required to file annually with the IRS declaring all their world income. Even those living in Canada.
When you return to Canada with the intention of permanently residing there, you will face a three month waiting period before your provincial health plan will cover you. During that time you can purchase private insurance specifically designed your situation . When you are ready I can make some suggestions about where you can find such insurance.
Your last, “sensitive” question about encountering medical debt in the U.S. before you return to Canada (I take it that was your question?). Any medical debt is payable to the provider–the hospital, doctors, or collectors. The U.S. government does not collect private debts. The hospital can sue you and try to recoup money you owe the way any other vendor can. But there are no “debt cops” at the border, so don’t worry about it. Again, I must ask, if you have been working in the U.S. for 25 years, don’t you have private health insurance? And once you’re back in Canada, as a permanent resident, you can get travel insurance to cover you when you take your snowbird trips. Relax.
I hope that helps somewhat.
Milan
Hi Milan
John here again and thank you for your earlier response.
How did you come by the knowledge that the one or two weeks we spend home at Christmas is counted as part of our 182 days? I have seen this statement published in the Snowbird magazine and have questioned them about it, they have taken my email and promised to forward the source information to me but never do.
Here’s the question I can’t seem to resolve:
I live close to the US border and travel in/out a couple of times a month, since I am not out of the USA for more than 30 days between trips this rule would consider me as having never left the USA. Or – is there some magical number of days that you have to be in the USA before your return home starts to count?
Thank again
Hi,
There is a Canadian living on a sailboat off our point of land in the US. He sailed in in February and is still there now. How long can he stay?
Lee:
The law is the same for him as anybody else: six months out of the last 12 or in a calendar year.
Milan
Milan,
Great information on this thread!
I was working in the US on TN visas for 4 years, and after my employment ended in February I reentered the US as a tourist for another 3 months. My question is: will my time on a TN count towards the 182 days (meaning that? Or is that only for tourist visa purposes?
Thanks,
Mike
My husband went to U.S. for 5 months and 3 weeks literally in the last 12 months (returned to Canada March 18/12) but now he needs to go to the U.S. for a day or two to pick up his car and then come back to Canada. Can he return to U.S. since he did not reach the six month limit from Sept 2011-March 2012 yet, even though he just returned to Canada about 6 or 7 weeks ago? Can he go back to U.S. now in the above situation. There doesn’t have to be any time in between does there as long as he hasn’t used up the six-months in the last calendar year – I know its close but that’s all he needs is the one or two days. Please let me know. Thanks. Tammy
Tammy:
Your husband should be fine. Just make sure he has good documentation that he has deep roots in Canada and fully intends to return in a couple of days. Border agents just want to know that people are sincerely intending to go back home.
Milan
OK. I concede that by creative book keeping the US requires I return to Canada in 6 months eg Oct 15 – Apr 15 even if I am actually out of the country on some trips shorter than 30 days so that I really was NOT there all that time. That would be an immigration issue. What about a taxation issue. ie. If I file a 8840 do I count the days I was REALLY there or do I include the days I was out of the country on the short trips? Mary
I am a Canadian citizen live in Ontario. My question is if i go to US and stay more than 182 days , would i be breaking the law? I have no intention of working there illegally or do anything illegal.
I want to get trained in IT and then i aply for a work visa while remain in the US.
I want to apply for H1 visa but that visa gets taken fast and i may not be able to get it. I know i am elegible for a TN status but it wont work in my case because i have a degree in Accounting but want to work in IT ( you have to have the same degree as your intended occupation for TN).
I mostly visit US using my Ontario Enhanced driver’s license, and never had any problem. My question is do US and Canada share information as to when a person enters the country and when he/she leaves? When i enter US , they would track me from my Ontario license plates on my car but when i go back to Canada, does the information pass onto US Customs?
I sure don’t want to be on the wrong side of the law, but due to shortage of H1 visas and circumstances, i’d like to live longer than 6 months if required.
THanks
Sid:
You can’t spend more than 6 months in theU.S. without a green card or visa of some kind. The green card is out of reach unless somebody actually offers you a job and meets immigration rules in the way the offer is made. Word of mouth is not enough.If you are planning to get training in IT you might apply to a U.S. school that is authorized for U.S. student visa purposes. That can get you in right away. You cannot use your visitors visa (allowance) to get training or work. If you are caught, you can be banished from entry to the U.S. for a long time.
You ask about your enhanced drivers permit. First of all, if you are serious, get a passport. That shows border people you are serious and not an ingenue.
Do the countries share information? Yes. Not all the time with every car, or with every traveller all the time, but enough that you’re odds of being detected shrink with the more you cross. Don’t risk it. Once you are detected, the border agent can black list you and that can last for years. It’s not worth it. Or get a job as an accountant until you get your green card, then you can do anything.
Milan
Hi Milan,
Well, the situation has resolved itself. The doctors were wrong. She didn’t have 3 to 6 months to live – it turned out she had less than a week from the time she was diagnosed with terminal cancer. She passed away on Saturday. After the funeral, Dad will be returning with us to B.C. to stay, so his cross-border USA-Canada issues are over.
Thanks, Dan